The Official End Thread

[ManOfWesternesse]

TT: I think there's another thread regarding the ending where we discussed why things happened the way they did, or something, im not sure. Jake was a lesson he needed to learn in order for the ka-tet to come about. He dropped him because he's an idiot and fell for Walter's trick, you know, our hero has flaws kinda thing.

Yeah, similar feelings on that I think.
It's something he has to learn/improve, hopefully on this next loop he does'nt drop him - which will change things that happen later in the loop...

[jayson]

T, I suspect you know what I''m going to say, but here it is anyway...

I see no evidence that Roland's loops are the same. All the speculative theories about whether or not they are are all very interesting, but I still see nothing definitive that says they are the same. Clearly the next one starts in a way familiar to us, but we don't know if that's where his last one started, only where we met him during that loop. Matt knows I do not think Roland is damned. I don't even think he is "stuck" in the loop. I see it more the way Zone put it, this is what Roland is made for. I said it in one of the other threads like this one, but it bears repeating, I don't personally like the view that Roland is damned to a series of do-overs to fix his mistakes to escape some form of cosmic punishment. to me it sounds too much like trying to beat a videogame - "pick up horn, don't drop boy, turn left at Tull." I don't see these events as "mistakes" Roland made, more than decisions he made, often agonizing ones. I think I've said it more clearly in other threads when it wasn't so early, but I think you get it.

[TerribleT]

T, I suspect you know what I''m going to say, but here it is anyway...

I see no evidence that Roland's loops are the same. All the speculative theories about whether or not they are are all very interesting, but I still see nothing definitive that says they are the same. Clearly the next one starts in a way familiar to us, but we don't know if that's where his last one started, only where we met him during that loop. Matt knows I do not think Roland is damned. I don't even think he is "stuck" in the loop. I see it more the way Zone put it, this is what Roland is made for. I said it in one of the other threads like this one, but it bears repeating, I don't personally like the view that Roland is damned to a series of do-overs to fix his mistakes to escape some form of cosmic punishment. to me it sounds too much like trying to beat a videogame - "pick up horn, don't drop boy, turn left at Tull." I don't see these events as "mistakes" Roland made, more than decisions he made, often agonizing ones. I think I've said it more clearly in other threads when it wasn't so early, but I think you get it.

You got the gist of what I'm trying to say. There's tons of speculation, despite a lot of evidence to the contrary, that somehow Roland will be saved if he doesn't drop Jake, or doesn't waste the residents of Tull. There's not any real solid evidence to suggest that this loop will be anything like previous ones, but that speculation is way off base. *shrug*

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I read this thread and thought it would be good to put down the end thing everyone's talking about so that it could be referred to.

Here is the end of the Dark Tower, Roland of Gilead that was, who finds himself at a door...

Spoiler:

"I come!" he called. "If'ee hear me, hear me well! I come!"
He took the stairs one by one, walking with his back straight and his head held up. The other rooms had been open to his
eye. The final one was closed off, his way blocked by a ghostwood door with a single word carved upon it. That word was
ROLAND.
He grasped the knob. It was engraved with a wild rose
wound around a revolver, one of those great old guns from his father and now lost forever.
Yet it will be yours again, whispered the voice of the Tower
and the voice of the roses—these voices were now one.
What do you mean?
To this there was no answer, but the knob turned beneath
his hand, and perhaps that was an answer. Roland opened the door at the top of the Dark Tower.
He saw and understood at once, the knowledge falling
upon him in a hammer blow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts. How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time's curse lifted), but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed? How many times had he traveled a loop like the one in the clip that had once pinched off his navel, his own tet-ka can Gan?
How many times would he travel it?
"Oh, no!" he screamed. "Please, not again! Have pity! Have
mercy!"
The hands pulled him forward regardless. The hands of the
Tower knew no mercy. They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy.
CODA 828
He smelled alkali, bitter as tears. The desert beyond the
door was white; blinding; waterless; without feature save for the faint, cloudy haze of the mountains which sketched themselves on the horizon. The smell beneath the alkali was that of the devil-grass which brought sweet dreams, nightmares, death.
But not for you, gunslinger. Never for you. You darkle. You tinct.
May I be brutally frank? You go on. And each time you forget the last time. For you, each time is the first
time.
He made one final effort to draw back: hopeless. Ka was
stronger.
Roland of Gilead walked through the last door, the one he
always sought, the one he always found. It closed gently behind

That above is pure evidence to this loop, that it is a loop, and some kind of repeating lesson for Roland to get right, here is after he has passed through the door:

Spoiler:

The gunslinger paused for a moment, swaying on his feet. He thought he'd almost passed out. It was the heat, of course; the damned heat. There was a wind, but it was dry and brought no relief. He took his waterskin, judged how much was left by the heft of it, knew he shouldn't drink—it wasn't time to drink—and had a swallow, anyway.
For a moment he had felt he was somewhere else. In the
Tower itself, mayhap. But of course the desert was tricky, and full of mirages. The Dark Tower still lay thousands of wheels ahead. That sense of having climbed many stairs and looked into many rooms where many faces had looked back at him was already fading.
/ will reach it, he thought, squinting up at the pitiless sun. I
swear on the name of my father that I will.
And perhaps this time if you get there it will be different, a voice whispered—surely the voice of desert delirium, for what other time had there ever been? He was what he was and where he was, just that, no more than that, no more. He had no sense of humor and little imagination, but he was steadfast. He was a gunslinger. And in his heart, well-hidden, he still felt the bitter romance of the quest.
You're the one who never changes, Cort had told him once, and in his voice Roland could have sworn he heard fear . . . although why Cort should have been afraid of him—a boy—Roland couldn't tell. It'll be your damnation, boy. You'll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your road to hell.
And Vannay: Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
And his mother: Roland, must you always be so serious ? Can you never rest?
Yet the voice whispered it again
(different this time mayhap different)
and Roland did seem to smell something other than alkali
and devil-grass. He thought it might be flowers. He thought it might be roses.
He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then
touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his
right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by
Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given itto Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell,
Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the death dust of that place from its throat.
This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with
it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening—O lost!—a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland—that
there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true.
He shook his head to clear it, thought of taking another sip
of water, and dismissed the idea. Tonight. When he built his
campfire over the bones of Walter's fire. Then he would drink.
As for now . . .
As for now, he would resume his journey. Somewhere ahead
CODA 830
was the Dark Tower. Closer, however, much closer, was the
man (was he a man? was he really?) who could perhaps tell him
how to get there. Roland would catch him, and when he did,
that man would talk—aye, yes, yar, tell it on the mountain as you'd hear it in the valley: Walter would be caught, and Walter would talk.
Roland touched the horn again, and its reality was oddly
comforting, as if he had never touched it before.
Time to get moving.
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger
followed.

These few lines he hears from his past, from the people who've helped to shape Roland, for good or ill are the key, I believe to the entire previous six books. I believe this is why King wrote his warning of an "ending". Because this passage is laying out the underlying why of Roland's cycle.

This is Roland's doom, to ceaselessly repeat until he learns the lessons the voices speak of, until he learns the three keys to his release...The Stone - Roland that is, heartless and hard pressed towards his goal. The Rose - symbol of the Tower, the lessons, the path to the end of suffering, The Door - the way from his cycle of suffering onto the rest of his life, when he learns to stop. When he learns that he must not be like his mother described, serious, always moving toward one thing or another.

[Jean]

There's tons of speculation, despite a lot of evidence to the contrary, that somehow Roland will be saved if he doesn't drop Jake, or doesn't waste the residents of Tull. There's not any real solid evidence to suggest that this loop will be anything like previous ones, but that speculation is way off base. *shrug*

I think for those who (like me) think that the less shit Roland does, the quicker he gets to the Tower and the safer the Tower is, it's still the same whether or not the loop is the same (which I am not sure of, either). Just read these cases (Jake and Tull and, to my mind, quite a few others) as metaphors or "situations where he choses to sacrifice people". Whatever the loops consist of, such situations are very likely to occur.

[ManOfWesternesse]

I read this thread and thought it would be good to put down the end thing everyone's talking about so that it could be referred to.....

Thanks for that, it does indeed help. (my Books (all 7 ) are away on loan).

[Matt]

That is so helpful to have that there. Thanks for typing it out TTDTC

[To The Dark Tower Came]

That is so helpful to have that there. Thanks for typing it out TTDTC

Welcome Now I'm going to put my fingers back in the bucket of ice ...heh.

[TerribleT]

I read this thread and thought it would be good to put down the end thing everyone's talking about so that it could be referred to.

Here is the end of the Dark Tower, Roland of Gilead that was, who finds himself at a door...

I'm feeling REALLY sheepish at this moment, but thank you VERY much for taking the time to post all of that. It truly ends much of the debate that has been going on for such a long time over all of this. Sometimes I get to talking about a subject and in my mind I'm thinking, "I really need to do some research to make sure I know what the hell I'm talking about". This entire debate has been one of those cases. I kept thinking, "you really need to go back and re-read the end of the book before you jump into this too much." To all who have been so concrete in your belief that Roland should not have dropped Jake, and that he will continue in this loop until he finds redemption, I cry your pardon, to name a few, this list includes Letti, Jean, and Matt. I'm sure a lot more have weighed in during the discussion, so if it applies to you, please add yourself to the list.

I really hate this though, I don't like it even a tiny little bit. To me, Roland has always been a larger than life character, who represents a perfect balance of diplomat, warrior, pragmatist, teacher, loyalist, and knight. He's always represented so much of what I think is right. One of the primary reasons I've always felt that was was because he dropped Jake. Not because I think that the act itself was anything to be proud of, but because he stood true to his obligation to his promise, despite his personal feelings about that act. The fact that the act was troubling to him is detailed throughout the series. At many other stages throughout the books Roland has to stand true, and he does exaclty what would be expected of a Gunslinger. In my opinion, as I've stated in previous theads, it was one of the ultimate acts of selflessness. He chose duty, over personal feelings. Roland is one of my all time favorite heroes, and to have him demeaned to a character from Ground Hog days does the tale, and Roland a disservice.

[ManOfWesternesse]

I'd safely say none of us had a complete & clear recollection of the passage in question - I know for sure mine was damn fuzzy (& I'd read the Book 3 times so far).
Damn, I'm getting an appetite for another re-read!

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I'd safely say none of us had a complete & clear recollection of the passage in question - I know for sure mine was damn fuzzy (& I'd read the Book 3 times so far).
Damn, I'm getting an appetite for another re-read!

The only reason I jumped in full on with my theories was because I just finished book 7 all of three days ago. As it is I am flipping through my Concordance books so much they are dog-eared already.

[Mist_on_the_Water]

yanno..I'd totally get into this discussion..but then I'd totally get wrapped up in it and my stubborness would only cause me to rant and rave and think too hard and make my brain hurt..so I'm just..gonna wathc..say thankya

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I read this thread and thought it would be good to put down the end thing everyone's talking about so that it could be referred to.

Here is the end of the Dark Tower, Roland of Gilead that was, who finds himself at a door...

I'm feeling REALLY sheepish at this moment, but thank you VERY much for taking the time to post all of that. It truly ends much of the debate that has been going on for such a long time over all of this. Sometimes I get to talking about a subject and in my mind I'm thinking, "I really need to do some research to make sure I know what the hell I'm talking about". This entire debate has been one of those cases. I kept thinking, "you really need to go back and re-read the end of the book before you jump into this too much." To all who have been so concrete in your belief that Roland should not have dropped Jake, and that he will continue in this loop until he finds redemption, I cry your pardon, to name a few, this list includes Letti, Jean, and Matt. I'm sure a lot more have weighed in during the discussion, so if it applies to you, please add yourself to the list.

I really hate this though, I don't like it even a tiny little bit. To me, Roland has always been a larger than life character, who represents a perfect balance of diplomat, warrior, pragmatist, teacher, loyalist, and knight. He's always represented so much of what I think is right. One of the primary reasons I've always felt that was was because he dropped Jake. Not because I think that the act itself was anything to be proud of, but because he stood true to his obligation to his promise, despite his personal feelings about that act. The fact that the act was troubling to him is detailed throughout the series. At many other stages throughout the books Roland has to stand true, and he does exaclty what would be expected of a Gunslinger. In my opinion, as I've stated in previous theads, it was one of the ultimate acts of selflessness. He chose duty, over personal feelings. Roland is one of my all time favorite heroes, and to have him demeaned to a character from Ground Hog days does the tale, and Roland a disservice.

I think a lot of people go through the books and then start to romanticize Roland. They really really want him to be the hero, the stand up guy who wins the day and then gets his reward at the end.

But when you read King's warning just before the section I posted, I think he's warning us that justice is not always coming. My favorite example of this comes from watching the movie "Arlington Road". If you haven't seen, it's about a man and his son who live on Arlington Road when new neighbors move in. They seem a tad off and so he delves deeper...

Read this if you're one who doesn't really mind knowing the end of said movie, or my thoughts...(lol)

Spoiler:

His new neighbors turn out to be domestic terrorists who are plotting to blow up a government building. Well he spends the whole movie trying to figure out their plan and thinks he has them caught. Well they kill his girl friend and use his son as bait, but though in the end one expects the hero to save the day and foil the terrorists, they trick him into driving into the government building where they've hidden their bomb in his car. He dies along with everyone else, leaving his son an orphan and the terrorists unscathed and moving on to another town and target.

This movie left me stewing for WEEKS. Where was the justice? Where was the triumph of fundamental good versus evil? Shocking.

I've never seen Roland as the hero of the series. He can be heroic, true, and a diplomat, and other things you mentioned. But behind it all is one simple, unyielding thing: attaining the Tower. But because he gets no justice for his "heroism" there is a feeling of irritation. Roland is only these things, almost unfailingly through the series when it furthers his drive towards the Tower.

Even without that, there is something deeper. Tied with his push to the Tower, it is Roland's lack of the qualities that would make him a complete man. He's a great gunslinger, capable of all those things you've mentioned, but those things lack humanity. They lack imagination, or humor, or compassion. Roland takes his duty his Eld bloodline not just to heart, but to soul, so much that it pushes the rest out. He's so wrapped up in the words protector/ defender of the White and Tower that he's missed the meaning of them.

The White is all that is good in all of us...not just good itself. When you defend that you defend love, and community, and comradery, laughter, all of it. Roland takes duty far to seriously, and misses the point. Hence he tried to climb the Tower, tried to face that which no one can without being selfish about it, and was sent to learn his mistake...again and again until he no longer needs to.

I don't think of it as Groundhog's Day, but more like Defending Your Life. When he no longer has the need to attain the Tower, he will be a complete man, and move on to peace.

"short posts..." what is this you speak of???

[TerribleT]

From the movie A Few Good Men...


Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[TerribleT]

The point that I'm trying to make with the previous post is that as a "defender of the White", you sometimes have to trade the things you love, and defend, in order to defend them. But they, like the Tower, must be defended. This calls to mind RofG's quote about the Tower never really being safe as well. Maybe this is just a soldier's point of view, and that makes some sense to me, as a soldier, you don't have the very liberty that you defend. You're required to wear what you're told, eat when your told when your told to eat it, sleep when your told, room with who your told to room with. I wonder if maybe having that experience makes me much more sensitive to things like the debate about smoking, and whatnot. I've actually had those basic liberties taken away (albeit voluntarily), so when anyone infringes on my freedom the least little bit, it's a big deal to me. While it's sad, and maybe a little contradictory, I think it describes Roland, and soldiers in general. You have to trade some of the very humanity that you speak of, to become a defender of it, and you have to do so willingly, and knowingly. He remains heroic in my mind for this reason.

[Matt]

Hmmm...I am not sure I can go too far with that T. As you know, I'm a vet as well and I believe the secret is not trading your humanity for it even if you are placed in that situation.

It is only our humanity that makes us human and as time goes on, I believe that may be what this story is all about.

[Storyslinger]

I guess I only figured it was the same loop because of the way it conisides with the first book.

[TerribleT]

Hmmm...I am not sure I can go too far with that T. As you know, I'm a vet as well and I believe the secret is not trading your humanity for it even if you are placed in that situation.

It is only our humanity that makes us human and as time goes on, I believe that may be what this story is all about.

S'ok, but you don't think commiting murder, even on behalf of your country, requires you to trade a piece of your humanity? I just think the notion is horribly idealistic, and romantic, and lacks any base in reality. I'm coming to believe that you are correct, that the story is about Roland redeeming himself. I'm just not happy about it, and I disagree with the basic premise. I think Roland's acts, although abhorrent to some, are noble to me.

[Jean]

S'ok, but you don't think commiting murder, even on behalf of your country, requires you to trade a piece of your humanity?

That's precisely what I think. Within my frame of reference it is called a sin; but what you said is a perfect re-statement of same in non-religious terms.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Very well said, Jean...

[ManOfWesternesse]

S'ok, but you don't think commiting murder, even on behalf of your country, requires you to trade a piece of your humanity?

That's precisely what I think. Within my frame of reference it is called a sin; but what you said is a perfect re-statement of same in non-religious terms.

Maybe I'm misreading this, but are we speaking of a soldier's killing of others in a time of war?
If so, then I'd have to say not all killing is 'murder'.
If I'm misreading - then ignore the above.

[Jean]

I don't think soldier's work comes under "murder" category, at least not for me. I also agree that not all killing is murder.

[jayson]

I don't think soldier's work comes under "murder" category, at least not for me. I also agree that not all killing is murder.

or even if it is, there are justifiable murders. not all murders are equal.

[TerribleT]

S'ok, but you don't think commiting murder, even on behalf of your country, requires you to trade a piece of your humanity?

That's precisely what I think. Within my frame of reference it is called a sin; but what you said is a perfect re-statement of same in non-religious terms.

Maybe I'm misreading this, but are we speaking of a soldier's killing of others in a time of war?
If so, then I'd have to say not all killing is 'murder'.
If I'm misreading - then ignore the above.

That's what I'm referring to, if you call it by another name is it somehow less dehumanizing?

[ManOfWesternesse]

That's what I'm referring to, if you call it by another name is it somehow less dehumanizing?

I don't think of it in terms of humanising or dehumanising T.

'Murder' is by definition "the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another" -Oxford English Dictionary - & broadly similar in others.

Personally I do differentiate between that definition & (say) the killing by a soldier in Army A of a soldier in Army B in a war.
Or indeed the killing, in self or another's defence, by one person of another in a civilian setting.
These things are indeed 'killings' but not (imho) 'murder'.
That 'unlawful' in the definition being the differentiation for me.

But it is only an opinion of course & I am well aware that some prefer to classify all human-human killing as 'murder'.