Gunslingers - discussion of their roles, social positions and functions

[pathoftheturtle]

I guess so, if Gan is one with the White, Gilead's ideal of civilization. But then, that leads in turn to the question of whether that greater force is amicable to humanity.
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Since the books may suggest that Gan is also a creature of the Prim, it could be that the Prim, and not Gan, is the actual God in the DT cosmology; but if this God (the Prim) is impartial regarding conflict between the humans and the demons then what hope is there really for human social progress?

Does social progress always have to be a product of a higher power being interested in (and amicable to) the mankind? ...

Well, I keep trying to point out that there's a big difference between a world where vampires exist and one where they do not. The ideas of natural rights developed here on this earth might very well not apply if nature and its contents were completely different than what we have observed throughout our history due to supernatural intervention.

...yes, I believe that the 'rise and fall' cycle is doomed to repeat, for what may well be the eternity.

Maybe so. Yet that would render "progress" essentially meaningless, wouldn't it?

Does war serve heaven, or does heaven serve war?

Stating an opinion on this would imply that I have a clear concept of what heaven is (as it applies to TDT universe, as well as in a general sense) - and I don't, although this is something that interests me greatly.

I used the word poetically. I don't think a term necessarily implies precise understanding when written outside of a science report. I guess I could rephrase what I was asking, though: I wonder whether it is indisputable that, in the big picture, conflict is always a driving force for progress. Is it not possible for conflict to be simply meaningless conflict? Why do we assume that it inherently produces positive side effects?

As a side note: Perhaps we overestimate the amount of attention God pays us or the amount that we need for survival and development; perhaps God is just a scientist who grows civilizations in the multiverse as a bacteria culture in a Petri dish - seed it, give it enough food, leave it alone for a while and it might grow into something interesting. There may or may not be a greater purpose for this experiment, it might well be that the growth process itself is purpose enough.

I'm afraid we're drifting off topic. Perhaps you'd like to summarize your general speculations for The (amicable) Religious Discussion Thread?