Patrick Danville General Discussion *SPOILERS*

[obscurejude]

Thanks for the kind words Monte.

I will comment in detail within the next couple of days. I'm off from work and have been thinking about some of these things myself recently.

I'm not sure how much Patrick ties in directly to Browning (is there a particular stanza you had in mind J and Y?) and I think a case could be made that the hoary cripple was Walter (which was in King's mind as early as the gunslinger based on the afterwards of the first three books).

Yes, the interconnectedness of life and art are certainly significant themes for King and particularly the DT Series (although Duma Key, Rose Madder, and the Dark Half immediately come to mind as well). Is it just the thematic relation to Browning typology that you are referring to J and Y, or is it a particular part of the poem? You mentioned Dandelo, and implied that Patrick fit some kind of chronology. I'd be extremely interested if you have something specifically from the poem to discuss.

Also, and this might refer to Maerlyn a little more specifically, but I think Patrick being able to erase the CK has to do with the CK not existing in bodily form (remember he killed himself before setting out for the Tower). I have a long argument I've been working on for several weeks and I'm not ready to spill it, but it is another way to think about Patrick's unique artistic gifts that don't tie him directly to Browning.

Anyways, more later I promise. Thank you J and Y for taking an invested interest in Browning. He doesn't get a lot of focus around here and that makes me and Woofer sad.

[John_and_Yoko]

Thanks for the kind words Monte.

I will comment in detail within the next couple of days. I'm off from work and have been thinking about some of these things myself recently.

I'm not sure how much Patrick ties in directly to Browning (is there a particular stanza you had in mind J and Y?) and I think a case could be made that the hoary cripple was Walter (which was in King's mind as early as the gunslinger based on the afterwards of the first three books).

Yes, the interconnectedness of life and art are certainly significant themes for King and particularly the DT Series (although Duma Key, Rose Madder, and the Dark Half immediately come to mind as well). Is it just the thematic relation to Browning typology that you are referring to J and Y, or is it a particular part of the poem? You mentioned Dandelo, and implied that Patrick fit some kind of chronology. I'd be extremely interested if you have something specifically from the poem to discuss.

Also, and this might refer to Maerlyn a little more specifically, but I think Patrick being able to erase the CK has to do with the CK not existing in bodily form (remember he killed himself before setting out for the Tower). I have a long argument I've been working on for several weeks and I'm not ready to spill it, but it is another way to think about Patrick's unique artistic gifts that don't tie him directly to Browning.

Anyways, more later I promise. Thank you J and Y for taking an invested interest in Browning. He doesn't get a lot of focus around here and that makes me and Woofer sad.

Thank you very much for posting! I was honestly hoping someone who knew more about Browning than I did would post here and give their own thoughts.

I didn't really have any one particular stanza in mind, I was mostly referring to Part Four, Chapter VI of Volume VII, where Roland and Susannah discover the poem and read the stanzas that were specifically pointed out to them.

I myself had heard the idea of the "hoary cripple" being represented by Walter and was in fact surprised to see it referring to Dandelo in this volume. But the fact that it made mention of that (I'm not even considering the possibility that the characters are misinterpreting it--which is nevertheless a possibility) made me think of Part Four, Chapter V up until Part Five, Chapter III of Volume VII as the "Browning" part of King's epic.

And the mention of Stanzas I, II, XIII, XIV, and XVI only seemed to add to the idea that King was directly referencing Browning here. I and II mention the hoary cripple with his staff (don't remember Walter having a staff or anything like it--besides, I don't recall Walter actually lying about anything, as Dandelo did), XIII and XIV mention the horse ("Lippy," another reference to Browning), and even XVI refers to Cuthbert--that's in the past already, so it isn't inconsistent with the interpretation. I've read the poem a few times already, but don't remember anything more specific offhand, I may have to look at it again....

But mostly it was looking at the first and last stanzas that made me link Patrick Danville to Robert Browning in terms of chronology. Roland first meets Patrick after Dandelo has been defeated--it is Dandelo who's kept Patrick prisoner. If Dandelo is the "hoary cripple," then that corresponds to the beginning of the poem. Likewise, Patrick leaves Roland when the latter reaches the Tower and calls out everyone's name, which naturally corresponds to the end of the poem. The Epilogue and Coda neither feature Patrick nor correspond to anything in the Browning poem. Also, Roland's second ka-tet has already been broken by the time he reaches Patrick, and only further breaks up afterward--plus Roland's done all that ka meant for him to do, so he's basically just finishing what he started, as Childe Roland is doing in the poem. And Patrick is the only one who accompanies Roland on his travels along the Beam toward the Dark Tower but isn't considered a member of his ka-tet (plus we know so little of him). Add that to his art being connected with reality and he seems so much like an outsider chronicling what's going on--and specifically doing so with the "Browning" portion of the story.

As I myself stated, that all might just be coincidence and I may be trying too hard to fit the two together, but that's why I'm glad to have a Browning expert listen to my idea--even if you decided ultimately to refute it, at least you took the time to listen and explain what you thought--and perhaps you'll interpret it better, being more familiar with Browning than I am. I'm very interested in what you have to say on the matter.

I also like your idea of Patrick's ability to erase the Crimson King being related to the fact that the latter already killed himself and made himself "undead"--that hadn't even occurred to me, and I'm interested in hearing more about it when you're ready to reveal. I think that would fall into this same general topic (unless such exists elsewhere already) since the main topic is discussing and interpreting Patrick's role in the saga.

Anyway, thanks again for posting, and hope to hear more from you later!

[John_and_Yoko]

Just went back and looked over the Browning poem, and now I'm starting to wonder whether Stephen King took inspiration from it throughout the series, rather than just in one volume or another....

Stanzas XXII and XXIII, with the fighters, remind me very much of the Pubes and Grays in Volume III, and especially taken with the next stanza, XXIV, the engine mentioned brings Blaine the Mono to mind....

Ironic since Volume III is named after T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land." I read that and couldn't understand much of any of it, let alone see how it might have inspired Stephen King specifically other than the title....

This is kind of going off-topic now, I know.... If there's already a poetry thread on these forums (meaning for discussing such poems as "Sundance" Browning's and "Butch" Eliot's and their relationship to King's epic), I hope someone will direct me to it. If not, one should be started (and I'm not the one to do it). Jude...?