I suppose it is.
I suppose it is.
I don't know how to respond to this discussion at the moment.
Let's see, King is needed, of that much I am sure. Why? Fuck if I know.
I personally am not entirely convinced King didn't create Mid-World. I still don't understand why it is not possible for King to have created/expanded the multiverse, even though he lives in only a small part/time of it. Isn't the act of writing it, creating it? So, really, it doesn't matter at all when it is written, only that it is. He can write about a parallel New York in the 1890s, which is before his time, and that when is created....isn't it?
Damn I like this thread! A true junkie paradise.
This IS a good thread
If I've read this thread correctly, I think that's the debate, Monte.
If the act of his writing created everything or if Gan predestined things, so to speak.
And IF Gan predestined things, will they still happen if SK doesn't translate them to paper?
I'm really not sure either way.
And then we're back to: does Gan need a kas-ka?
Damn.
Damn is right.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Sigh.
I wish I knew for sure.
I've got more quotes but I'm too tired to type them out right now.
Sometime tomorrow...
Ok, seeing as I'm jumping in halfway through a discussion - I'll just go back to the beginning and try and catch up.
This is Monte's favourite topic I don't know if you went to his Twins/Twinners thread (I'm working my way down the board) but as you rightly stated above Twinners need essentially to be created at the same time (albeit in different wheres), this is cemented by Wolf telling Jack that Twinners are "litters" of people.
Twin beings/places can be in different wheres and whens, so I'd say the same point of origin isn't necessarily a factor. Especially if you look at this in terms of authors and worlds of their creation. Some authors purposely create a world that is a twin of some previous authors creation (usually as a hommage), some do it inadvertantly...which leads me on to this...
I think Keystone World is important, not just because its where King comes from, but its the level of the Tower where all our authors exist.Originally Posted by AllHailThe CrimsonKing
CK, I love how you phrased the lines I bolded in your quote. If you look at authors as Gan's prophets, then its almost as if Keystone World is Gan's "forspecial" drawer, his keepsake box where he keeps all his story spinners together to ensure his song is being eternally sung.
My understanding of it combines Monte and CK's views - that Gan created the Multiverse (within the Tower) but that it was in part an empty shell - but one with infinite potential that the authors fill with their infinite worlds.
Well said, and this helps me to understand things a bit better.
However, I'm still confused about the kas-ka.
Why does all of this information seem to flow through and out of Sai King if it's his own creation? If it was his own creation, I could see where the empty shell theory comes in, but I'm not sure it is.
He says himself that he's added some of his own opinions, but it definitely seems that it's not his original material. If Gan wants to make sure his song is being eternally sung, it's his original material, right?
The kas-ka(s) are just there to interpret and record it. (and make it happen? back to that again...)
Maybe Gan didn't create everything... Maybe we need to consider ka in this whole equation. I like what Ryan said earlier, that ka is unrelated to Gan. Maybe ka is the force that created everything, or, since ka is a wheel and a wheel always turns, maybe everything has always existed and nothing created it. Like steady-state theory in physics. Blah, I feel like I'm talking religion or science now and I'm getting waaaaay off topic. I'm gonna stop.
And yet again, I still have questions.
I would say that SK might feel, for the purpose of the story, that he has embellished the message he's been given (Gan's song) with his own ideas, thus making it his creation...but thats partly an author's ego talking. I like the saying "theres no such thing as an original idea" - in fiction it applies very well to the concept that there were 6 original stories at the beginning of time, and that every story that exists, has its origins in the original six.
I mean, we know that The dark Tower is not infact SK's concept - it was Robert Browning's...who's to say that Browning's poem wasn't influenced by another writer, etc, etc.
I think Gan indulges his story tellers by letting them assume they have created more than they did, that much of the Tower existed prior to their contribution - but massaging their ego's is a (small) price Gan is willing to pay for the greater good of the Tower.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
roland's world is a keystone world an there is no going back in time right?
so am i stupid for thinking that this one law completely negates the book's ending? and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere..
Wow! Great post! Welcome to tdt.com!
I hope someone with a more in depth understanding of time travel will be in here promptly to come up with theories for answers to your questions!!! in the meantime enjoy the site!
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The Tower IS the Keystone and can make it's own rules.
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Con todo mi corazon, por todo de mis dias. And I always will, in this life and into the next.
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It has never been said that Roland's world is the Keystone world.
The world where Stehpen King lives, that's the Keystone world.
Welcome to the site, sai.
Roland would have understood.
There is a thread already made for chat about this topic - http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...light=Keystone
Letti, could you merge this with that one?
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
Thank you for finding it, Matthew.
Yeah, I'll merge the threads soon.
Roland would have understood.
basically, i think that once the Tower has something up it's sleeve, all bets are off.
I don't think Roland went back in time. He advanced to a different level of the Tower (in an Insomnia sense). He is transported both to a new time and a new place. He's not the same person we met on page one of The Gunslinger. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0 or 119.0).
Yes, I agree Bev. Thanks for posting that. I think Roland is always advancing forward and never backward.
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
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I totally agree with that too. Was never real fond of the "reset time" idea.
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
People talk about a "loop," but I prefer to describe it as an upward spiral, like a helix.
That said, please remember to set your clocks back Sat. Nov 1 before you go to bed
Thank you ......
The answer is within
all matter is energy, all energy is GOD
I love you Linda...
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::coughs::
just for the sake of equity... in a conversation with Matt and AllHail, this here bear introduced the concept of spiral as long ago as in August of 2008 (in this thread, from post #22 down; also at .net long before that); the notion being so thoroughly Hegelian it could hardly have escaped someone's notice sooner or later.
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!